Author Topic: Dac Historian  (Read 460 times)

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Dac Historian
« on: 01.06.2018, 02:15:49 »
Hey guys.

Ive been reading up on your forum for some time, and I love it. I speak (just read really) very little Russian (Ya chitayu paruski y bulgarski!), enough to navigate and get some general info.

I am writing a historical book about Autobuzul Bucuresti, which will contain models, history including political events that affected this industry, any Dac history would be incomplete without mentioning Chavdar. I do know quite a bit about both the Dac-Chavdar trolleybuses and the B13-20/B14-20 buses, although there is always information to find out and discover.

I would like two things to ask of you.

1. If you can reply with a link to discussions here in the forum where mention (or photos) of any Dac or Chavdars with Dac chassis appear. I did read literally every page (well, I glanced and word searched) but I did find things I missed here and there. I am gathering all the photos I can to study them since I am also re-engineering these buses in a 3D CAD program (including the Chavdar buses) so even a photo where a Dac or Chavdar is in the backgruond could be very useful. So if you come across one, I would appreciate the link to that page.

2. Bare with me, since I may post in English (although I do speak Romanian well and French fairly well, and a bit of German, and as I mentioned before, I do read but poorly Russian and Bulgarian. In a pinch, I can understand Spanish too). I will try to translate as much as I can, although this post being so long may be the worst, since I will use an online translator.

Anyway, thanks for accepting me in the forum, and if you have questions about these buses, I can answer (particularly about Dac and Roman buses).

Здравейте автобусни фенове от София,

Ya четене на вашия форум за известно време, и аз го обичам. Говоря (просто чета наистина) много малко руски (Ya chitayu paruski y bulgarski!), Достатъчно, за да навигирате и да получите някаква обща информация

Пиша историческа книга за Autobuzul Bucuresti, която ще съдържа модели, история, включително и политически събития, които засягат тази индустрия, всяка история на Dac би била непълна, без да споменава Чавдар. Знам доста за тролейбусите Dac-Chavdar и за автобусите B13-20 / B14-20, въпреки че винаги има информация, която да разберете и откриете.

Бих искал да попитам две неща:

1. Ако можете да отговорите с връзка към дискусиите във форума, където се появяват споменавания (или снимки) на Dac или Chavdars с Dac шаси. Прочетох буквално всяка страница (добре, погледнах и търсех дума), но открих неща, които ми липсваха тук и там. Събирам всички снимки, които мога да ги изуча, тъй като ре-инженеринг на тези автобуси в 3D CAD програма (включително автобусите Чавдар), така че дори една снимка, в която Дак или Чавдар е в задната част, може да бъде много полезна. Така че, ако срещнете едно, бих оценила връзката към тази страница.

2. Имайте търпение с мен, тъй като мога да публикувате на английски (въпреки че говоря добре румънски добре и френски доста добре и малко немски, и както споменах по-рано, аз чета, но лошо руски и български. Разбирам и испански). Ще се опитам да превеждам колкото мога, макар че този пост е толкова дълъг, може би най-лошият, тъй като ще използвам онлайн преводач.

Благодарим Ви, че ме приехте във форума и ако имате въпроси относно тези автобуси, мога да отговоря (особено за Dac и Roman автобуси).

Благодаря Ви,
Al
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics

Offline Emperor

  • Защо пиша толкова много?
  • ********
  • Posts: 2993
  • Mercedes O305 1969-∞
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #1 on: 01.06.2018, 02:58:59 »
There are not many photos of DAC Chavdar trolleybuses as they weren't very successful and were quickly scrapped or sold to smaller towns.

Most photos that can be found are all in this page by Association "Public Transport & Infrastructure". Most of the historic photos have been gathered from this forum and put in one place, others are mine from the transportation of the last remaining DAC Chavdar. Trolleybus 118 has been bought and is awaiting future preservation.

 :arrow: http://trolleybus.bgtransport.org/dac-chavdar-317-etr-118/

ГИОРТ - Група Идиоти Отговорна за Разрушаванто на Транспорта

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #2 on: 01.06.2018, 09:51:20 »
I am aware of your flicker, Emperor. You are truly doing a great job, although I would love to see photos of the restoration (if you have started).

As far as photos, I have gathered a few of them, from all sorts of random topics, sometimes when the Dac (or Chavdar B13/14) are in the background. There are a few others on transira.org as well as tramclub.org when the E317ETr trolleybuses were brand new and displayed during several expos in Romania (true, they were not yet ETr, but just E317ET)

But you are correct. There are not many photos of them. I have gather most (if not all, except for some personal photos, but they are popping up on facebook). I have nearly 200k photos of Dac buses, of which maybe 150 or so are Dac-Chavdar. I wish I could post some, but I dont hold the rights to any of them.
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics

Offline тролей №164 линия 2

  • Наистина съм луд
  • *******
  • Posts: 1550
  • Моят любим "Snacks" - тролей №164. R.I.P.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #3 on: 01.06.2018, 18:52:28 »
Hi.
Following are forum posts, that you may find helpful. :arrow:
Post 1
Post 2
This topic
Post 3 for example in the topic from the above link.
A colorful one :)
« Last Edit: 01.06.2018, 19:12:18 by тролей №164 линия 2 »
Никога не шофирай по-бързо, отколкото може да лети твоят ангел-хранител!

Offline IKAR

  • Наистина съм луд
  • *******
  • Posts: 1909
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #4 on: 01.06.2018, 19:23:15 »
By the way, do you have photos of the DAC articulated buses, that have been made in special, export versions, for tests in Germany and USA? They have been tested for several months by the potential clients, but no orders followed. Also there is a Roman truck-chassis based bus with two doors behind the front axle, intended for the third-world countries. No orders for it followed either and it also remained a single specimen.

Also it would be a good idea if you purchase the book about Chavdar buses, written by Ivan Kolev. It is in Bulgarian language only, however if you can read the forum, the book will be no problem for you. There are many photos that are not available online. Also, a good source is the book "East block buses" by Martin Harak, in Czech language, but if you read Russian, it will be understandable for you.


https://books.google.bg/books?id=cQuJAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA224&dq=Autobusy+a+trolejbusy+v%C3%BDchodn%C3%ADho+bloku&hl=bg&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://forum.gtsofia.info/index.php?topic=60.2340
« Last Edit: 01.06.2018, 21:47:18 by IKAR »
Less travel by car! (използвайте по - малко лични автомобили за сметка на обществения транспорт, независимо от финансовите Ви възможности - препоръка на Европейската Комисия)

Да се отнеме незабавно лиценза за пътнически превози на БДЖ, тъй като изключително неадекватните разписания и опасният амортизиран подвижен състав водят до особено лошо транспортно обслужване.

Online Ivo

  • Нямам спирка
  • *********
  • Posts: 11973
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #5 on: 01.06.2018, 21:59:31 »
Here are some of my Photos
Не ни трябват хора с "дипломи" а работещи и можещи да мислят, влагайки логика и разум в това което правят.

Фен на автобусите ЧАВДАР

Online Ivo

  • Нямам спирка
  • *********
  • Posts: 11973
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #6 on: 01.06.2018, 22:04:06 »
 :)
Не ни трябват хора с "дипломи" а работещи и можещи да мислят, влагайки логика и разум в това което правят.

Фен на автобусите ЧАВДАР

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #7 on: 02.06.2018, 05:24:07 »
Hi.
Following are forum posts, that you may find helpful. :arrow:

Thanks for picking those out. I actually missed one, 405 in 1991. What city is that from? Varna? (Just because the number strkes as that, a two digit number with a check digit placed first)
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #8 on: 02.06.2018, 05:28:22 »
Here are some of my Photos

Excellent photos. I havent seen some of those (like the photos of 113 and 116). Two things I would like to know.

1. Do you happen to recall when the photos were taken? Clearly they were before the buses were retired.

2. In the file name of one of the photos (113) its labeled as prototype. Does this mean that it is suspected of being one of the 317 prototypes (except for Sofia since those were the first delivered).

Thanks again.
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #9 on: 02.06.2018, 05:54:38 »
By the way, do you have photos of the DAC articulated buses, that have been made in special, export versions, for tests in Germany and USA? They have been tested for several months by the potential clients, but no orders followed. Also there is a Roman truck-chassis based bus with two doors behind the front axle, intended for the third-world countries. No orders for it followed either and it also remained a single specimen.


I do have some photos of those buses (but I do not want to post them since I don't own the copyright. Showing them is another matter, so if you want, send me a pm).

As far as the buses themselves: Dac 117UD-C-E Man (with Voith transmissions, if I recall automatic) and Dac 117UD-C-E-Daf Turbo ZF (manuals) were exported to west Germany. A few demo buses were sent but at least 4 (possibly 5) are confirmed to have been sold and ran for many years on suburban route around Frankfurt.

Officially they were known as IDAC in Germany due to their odd trademark laws (Much like early Ford Focus cars were sold as Ford Escort still due to a magazine called Focus, even though it had nothing to do with cars. DAC is the German auto club and had only a limited connection (as in both are in the automotive industry, one is a tow truck service, the other a bus manufacturer), but this was enough to force Autobuzul Bucuresti (the factory name) to market the 117UD as IDAC as the brand.

As far as I know, the ones in Germany run until the 90s when they were scrapped.

The NY buses are a bit more convoluted in their history. In 83 two demo buses were sent to MTA (MSBA, the suburban arm or the city transit authority, responsbile for bus route on Long Island). These were DAC 117UD-X-E with Cummins 6 cylinder engines and Allison automatic transmissions (the same drive train that Crown Ikarus and Orion III offered). The buses ran for 10 months every day without a single defect or problem. The drivers, mechanics and passengers loved the buses and MTA was about to order more (170 in a first order with the option of expanding the order. The numbers may be off, since Im working off memory right now and not my notes).

Unfortunately the Hungarian diaspora protested violently, burning police cars and looting stores when they found out that Romania would get this contract (and not Ikarus). I wont go into all the details but they are very ugly, and sadly, MSBA never acquired these buses, and even had to send the two demo buses back (one was later converted to a trolleybus in Bucharest). MSBA gave up on articulated buses for many years after that (not until the 90s with the New Flyer D60). They had demo buses, such as the articulated MAN SG220 but it fell short.

Ironically, MSBA considered the MAN to be inferior to the DAC, even though the Dac was based in large part on the MAN 890UO bus (built under license as the Roman 112UD). The SG220 was the next step for MAN but it seems it was not as good as the older version, which the Dac carried over with simple improvements (also also very good sub-assemblies, made in the US, Germany, France and UK).

The third world bus you mentioned is the 111UDF "Urbis" which was on a Roman chassis (licensed from MAN) with several options for its engine (a MAN D2156 built by RABA or locally at Brasov, as well as a Saviem engine) all mounted in the front (like a Skoda 706RTO). It was actually similar in its body construction to a DAC, as it has the same windows, doors, body geometry and many other elements, except the front and rear.

They were exported in large numbers to Africa and the Middle East, although very few remained in the local or European market. I do know of one that is (or was) registered in Cluj county in Romania. I wish I had more photos, especially with them in other countries, but I do have documentations that shows those numbers (even if I know some of them are exaggerated.)

Hopefully this wasnt too much and helped answer some questions.

Again, thank you all!
Al
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics

Online Ivo

  • Нямам спирка
  • *********
  • Posts: 11973
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #10 on: 06.06.2018, 21:59:26 »
Here are some of my Photos

Excellent photos. I havent seen some of those (like the photos of 113 and 116). Two things I would like to know.

1. Do you happen to recall when the photos were taken? Clearly they were before the buses were retired.

Thanks again.

The articulated Chavdar V14-20 february 2006 in Pernik, V13-20 in April 2011 in Blagoevgrad
Не ни трябват хора с "дипломи" а работещи и можещи да мислят, влагайки логика и разум в това което правят.

Фен на автобусите ЧАВДАР

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #11 on: 06.06.2018, 23:12:14 »

The articulated Chavdar V14-20 february 2006 in Pernik, V13-20 in April 2011 in Blagoevgrad

By chance was it April 11th? I have seen a few other photos that seem to be shot by you during that same time. One with E-0160-AX next to E-7415AP from the rear. If not, they are too close to figure out which came first (but also less important since there would be no changes to the bus in the matter of a few days).

As far as the other photo, the second the last photo. I can't identify that bus. It looks to be a shortened B14-20, with odd tail lights. I couldnt find any photos in Blagoevgrad with that setup. I've seen them on the Shumen buses, but not here. Any help identifying it would be great.

As an aside. Is the model name B13-20 or V13-20. B is Cyrillic is a V, so what would the correct writing be in English?

Thanks again.
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics

Online Ivo

  • Нямам спирка
  • *********
  • Posts: 11973
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #12 on: 07.06.2018, 22:31:20 »
Hmm, I think its V14-20 V 13-20.

The short are original V13-20. After the first door first is smaw window after that long. V14-20 is first long window after that long.

На снимките са къси В13-20. При късите оригинално първо е малкия прозорец, после големия, при съчленените първо е големия после малкия. Късите в повечето случаи имаха само стъкло зад шофьора без кабина, съчленените затоврена кабина. При късите обикновено отляво имаше 1 ред седалки при съчленените 2 реда, но откъм вратите при късите имаше и двойни седалки.
Не ни трябват хора с "дипломи" а работещи и можещи да мислят, влагайки логика и разум в това което правят.

Фен на автобусите ЧАВДАР

Offline castrosua

  • Начинаещ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Dac Historian
« Reply #13 on: 07.06.2018, 22:55:00 »
I couldnt understand the part about the seats all too well, but I will be able to figure that out from photos.

Thanks for clarifying the issue about the first two windows. on Dac buses the first window was always the short one (a unique part on 112 series and 117 series. On the 217E and 317 series, including the Dac-Chavdar, that first window on the right was the same as the third wondow on the left, to be clear, the window right after the cable tunneling. On the 317E the small window can also be found after the tunneling on the trailer, but only on the E317 and the 317ET in Timosoare, so it doesnt apply to the Chavdar)

As far as the windows on the B13 and B14 versions. I believe they have the same length as those on the Dac buses, and the doors are just as wide as well. I may be wrong, but the pattern is too similar to be different.

Не можах да разбера добре работата за седалките, но ще мога да разбера, че няма снимки.

Благодаря за изясняване на проблема за първите два прозореца. За сериите 217E и 317, в това число Dac-Chavdar, този първи прозорец вдясно е същият като третия вълнолом на In 317E, малкият прозорец може да се намери и след тунела на ремаркето, но само на E317 и 317ET в Тимоша, така че не се отнася за Чавдар)

Що се отнася до прозорците на версиите B13 и B14. Мисля, че те имат същата дължина като тези на Dac автобусите, а вратите са също толкова широки. Може да греша, но моделът е твърде сходен, за да бъде различен.

Thanks!
Coming soon...Autobuzul Works-The Uncensored History about Buses and Cold War Politics